S.O.S. Mathematics CyberBoard

Your Resource for mathematics help on the web!
It is currently Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:12:58 UTC

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 07:06:30 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer
User avatar

Joined: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:22 UTC
Posts: 182
Image
Im doing numbers 1,2,3. Im confused on the notation.

For #1.) and #2.) To prove its injective or one-to-one, what do i need to show?

for example in 1.) to show its injective i wanted to show f(a,b)=f(c,d) which then a=c. But this is wrong.
Should it be , suppose f(a,y)=f(c,y)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:16:25 UTC 
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:25:14 UTC
Posts: 12169
Location: Austin, TX
DgrayMan wrote:
Image
Im doing numbers 1,2,3. Im confused on the notation.

For #1.) and #2.) To prove its injective or one-to-one, what do i need to show?

for example in 1.) to show its injective i wanted to show f(a,b)=f(c,d) which then a=c. But this is wrong.
Should it be , suppose f(a,y)=f(c,y)?


The first function is not 1-1 unless B only has one element, so you cannot prove it is injective because it's more or less guaranteed NOT to be.

_________________
(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)
This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:21:01 UTC 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:49:32 UTC
Posts: 6066
Location: 127.0.0.1, ::1 (avatar courtesy of UDN)
Shadow wrote:
The first function is not 1-1 unless B only has one element


... or: if A or B is empty.

_________________
\begin{aligned}
Spin(1)&=O(1)=\mathbb{Z}/2&\quad&\text{and}\\
Spin(2)&=U(1)=SO(2)&&\text{are obvious}\\
Spin(3)&=Sp(1)=SU(2)&&\text{by }q\mapsto(\mathop{\mathrm{Im}}\mathbb{H}\ni p\mapsto qp\bar{q})\\
Spin(4)&=Sp(1)\times Sp(1)&&\text{by }(q_1,q_2)\mapsto(\mathbb{H}\ni p\mapsto q_1p\bar{q_2})\\
Spin(5)&=Sp(2)&&\text{by }\mathbb{HP}^1\cong S^4_{round}\hookrightarrow\mathbb{R}^5\\
Spin(6)&=SU(4)&&\text{by the irrep }\Lambda_+\mathbb{C}^4
\end{aligned}


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:48:34 UTC 
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:25:14 UTC
Posts: 12169
Location: Austin, TX
outermeasure wrote:
Shadow wrote:
The first function is not 1-1 unless B only has one element


... or: if A or B is empty.


Ah yes, this pathology with the universal quantifier.

_________________
(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)
This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 16:31:15 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer
User avatar

Joined: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:22 UTC
Posts: 182
So for #2). to prove its injective could i say if suppose f(a,b)=f(b,a) then (b,a)=(a,b)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:39:46 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer
User avatar

Joined: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:22 UTC
Posts: 182
And #3 i'm at a loss as show if it's a bijection


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 19:00:06 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer

Joined: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 04:47:19 UTC
Posts: 208
#3 cannot be a bijection. Consider b_1 \in B such that b \neq b_1, then (x, b_1) \in A \times B but (x, b_1) \not\in f(A)....assuming the cardinality of B is greater than 1.

And for #2 to show something is injective, you can usually follow the definition.
If f(x, y) = f(x', y'), then (y,x) = (y', x') which means y = y' and x = x', so (x,y) = (x', y').


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 19:58:57 UTC 
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:25:14 UTC
Posts: 12169
Location: Austin, TX
DgrayMan wrote:
So for #2). to prove its injective could i say if suppose f(a,b)=f(b,a) then (b,a)=(a,b)?


For #2 just find a left-inverse and that shows your function is injective.

_________________
(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)
This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 22:46:20 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer
User avatar

Joined: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:22 UTC
Posts: 182
Got it for #2.)

For #3) ito show its not injective i made f(a)=f(c), with f(a)=(a,b) & f(c)=(c,b). since (a,b)=(c,b) it shows b is repeated so its not 1-1 . But my teacher said i need to check whether a=c?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:19:46 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer

Joined: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 04:47:19 UTC
Posts: 208
I really think you should just follow the definition of injectivity. Which means do #3 similar to way I told you about number #2 because ultimately you want to show, by definition, that if f(a) = f(c), then a = c which is what your teacher is telling you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:26:26 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer
User avatar

Joined: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:22 UTC
Posts: 182
For surjective. z in AxB, then z=(z,b)=f(z). So every f(x) for f(x)=(a,b)?

Maybe im having trouble visualizing what exactly. A->AxB looks like :(


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 23:19:49 UTC 
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:25:14 UTC
Posts: 12169
Location: Austin, TX
DgrayMan wrote:
For surjective. z in AxB, then z=(z,b)=f(z). So every f(x) for f(x)=(a,b)?

Maybe im having trouble visualizing what exactly. A->AxB looks like :(


Huh? Surely z\ne (z,b). In any case, it should be dead obvious that the map from A\to A\times B cannot be surjective unless B has only one element.

_________________
(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)
This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 21:37:25 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer

Joined: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 04:47:19 UTC
Posts: 208
DgrayMan wrote:
For surjective. z in AxB, then z=(z,b)=f(z). So every f(x) for f(x)=(a,b)?

Maybe im having trouble visualizing what exactly. A->AxB looks like :(


I don't know if you are having problems visualizing what f: A \rightarrow A \times B looks like since it's explicitly given to you by the mapping f(a) = (a, b) where b \in B and b is always the same element.

I'll give an example to see if it helps.
Let A = \{ 1, 2, 3 \} and B = \{6, 7, 8 \} and assume that b = 7, then f(1) = (1, 7), f(2) = (2, 7), f(3) = (3, 7).

Even with this example you should see why f is not surjective with these particular sets A and B.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 00:34:39 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer
User avatar

Joined: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:22 UTC
Posts: 182
I think im starting to get it. So for example AxB contains for instance (2,8), which is not in the function f, so since it's not the image of anything then f is not surjective


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Functions on Arbitrary Sets and Groups
PostPosted: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 00:41:05 UTC 
Offline
S.O.S. Oldtimer

Joined: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 04:47:19 UTC
Posts: 208
Yes. That typically is how to show something is not surjective. Find one element in the range that is not hit by any element in the domain or as you put it...not in the image.

Of course, I put this more mathematically in my first post.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Contact Us | S.O.S. Mathematics Homepage
Privacy Statement | Search the "old" CyberBoard

users online during the last hour
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005-2011 phpBB Group.
Copyright © 1999-2013 MathMedics, LLC. All rights reserved.
Math Medics, LLC. - P.O. Box 12395 - El Paso TX 79913 - USA